STUDIO GIGS

[Mark]

 I've always thought that we should not really be putting on gigs at the studio with mid tier nz orginal bands.  The place is designed for international and top level nz groups only.  
   And now the costs have got higher because the lighting guy won't work for less than $300 anymore.
  As for how much work Michelle puts into promoting them... i hassled her hugely in the last 3 weeks for putting in far too many hours and money into promo (and it turned out to make no difference to numbers) when she needs to be mixing and doing her uni assignments.   Unfair comment by Willow on Michelles efforts.  She works incredibly hard on promo.   But sometimes its impossible to get the numbers because of the lineup and unpredictabilities.

I agree with doing more gigs at other places with lower costs.  I've been saying that for the last year. Schooner, shadows, kings arms.. great places.. with not many costs.
 I also agree with Dave in keeping the studio for bands that can get the bigger crowds ( and are not worried about the deposit because they know they'll get it back).  
 Remember its a deposit, not a payment. You get it back once costs are covered by the door.
  The studio has high costs. So it only works when its going to be a big one.. thats whats its designed for.

 If bands aren't keen on the deposit, then we cancel, because its a very accurate indication of they numbers they think they'll get, and if they think the venue is worth the costs.
  If we end up cancelling em all.. then I'm not concerned.. because we'l look at other venues, get mixies done and avoid making losses.  Which means we will be able to get mixes finished quicker , which would really help.

[dragonorchid]

We are not asking for deposit to any other gigs, only studio ones. Don't wanna pay a deposit (one that your very likely to get back anyway), then play a gig somewhere else. The Studio is a special case, anyone who has been to a gig there would understand why.

[simon_ishtar]

Delegation comes into it to a degree. We had a thing going with Notes bar years ago that when we played there Export gold would give us cheap booze. it was like $5 for 2 beers from memory at a time when they'd cost $4 each. That kind of thing is a lot easier for the venue to sort out and its in their interests cause it can bring more people in.
 RE:Radio that'd  still be the promoters job unfortunately.

[simon_ishtar]

Also keeping in mind Mark, it's winter so is going to be harder getting bums on seats.
 Whats the comparitive stats for RF gigs by season?

[Oliver Luck]

This might be sticking my nose in where its not meant to be. But my view is that if its a 'rockfactory' gig, then it should be covered by the rockfactory and the rockfactory takes the $ and sorts it out for covering costs from door take, etc. However, if its that a band has booked RF for the sound for a gig and they organise the Studio Gig. Then its fair enough to expect some sort of down payment/deposit for the service. But it seems like a conflict of interest to be organising a gig under your own banner then paying yourself to do sound and expecting bands to cover that with a deposit before playing? I might have misunderstood it though, so dont quote me on that.

What needs to be decided is: Is RF a promoter OR the sound technicians for the gigs?
If promoter; organises covering costs, promotion (poster-runs, etc)
If just Sound Tech; shouldnt worry about the promo...its up to the person(s) organising the gig.

Its very hard to draw a line if doing both.
Again, im just going on what I see written here.

[simon_ishtar]

Ollie makes a good point.

question: root cause is light guy will no longer work for cut rate?

[dragonorchid]

College Hill price is now around $750 for the big PA ( no more specials), we make it easier for the bands when we use ours, and we charge way less market value for bringing our full PA, setting things up for hours before the gig, and packing down when everyone has left. we are often there 5 or 6 more hours than everyone else, and we don't get payed for this. I don't organise gigs to make money, but i don't want to make a loss either, just like everyone else. I'm not a promotor, I've never been paid for promotion EVER. and I've paid for it (posters, flyers, time etc) out of my own pocket.

[dragonorchid]

that is why promotion is up to the bands for our gigs.

[Geetadave]

Whoevers prepared to give michelle or mark sh*t, go on and step up to the plate and do a better job, then see how easy it is to keep everyone happy...

Organise your own gigs if your not happy with the way it's run, it's quite simple in my opinion, like it or lump it.  i'm happy with the way the nights are run, i've never had a problem i dont see why anyone should have a problem.

Anyway, smaller venue is a good idea, as an idea expanding off other peoples ideas...  try find a small bar that can do a similar deal to studio, doesn't matter, anywhere..  if you put 1-200 people in a venue say the size of edens bar, that would kick ass!  and it would be a hellova lot cheaper.

[Ant_Alpine Fault]

+1 Mark.

+1 Ollie.

+1 Simon.

[Mark]

To Simon on sponsorship..  we asked the rock once.. but they said they would only sponsor it if we got a headline band to play.

 Ollie: Michelle has been trying to be the promoter.. but the bottom line is we're not a promotions company.. we're a sound tech company.   But 90% of the gigs their have been successful.. and bands are better off because theres no promoter to pay.. michelle cut out the middle man.   So bands that get a big crowd do well with michelle as promoter for free.

 I just think its all about what the venue being designed for big events.. only big events work there.. which usually mean big bands and big promoting companies.  Its amazing shes been able to do what she has really.

[Ant_Alpine Fault]

Whoevers prepared to give michelle or mark sh*t, go on and step up to the plate and do a better job, then see how easy it is to keep everyone happy...

I don't think anyone's giving Michelle and Mark sh*t. I think we're all trying to help...

This discussion is getting rather heated but I think we could all learn a thing or two if we stop defending our own causes/actions and started listening to each other.

[simon_ishtar]

Ok I get that. I think we all know you guys don't get enough $$s for what you do. I'll admit to feeling a little guilty bout that. I think Mark hit the nail on the head a few posts back, asking mid level bands to fill a huge venue in this city is a really big ask, you guys would make more $$s with a smaller venue.
 Given that the deposit doesn't  change things as, like you say, the studio gigs usually break even at least, does that change things greatly for yourselves?
 I really think someone (ie maybe a helpful RF forum poster) could chase some of the marketing up re: booze and probably radio.
 However if RF is putting on the gig it still has a stake in promotion, end of the day it is still a RF gig.

[The Scarecrow]

I've personally never found gigs too terrible to organise myself, at venues like Edens/Kings Arms/Masonic.  Schooner was decent, if a tad irritant in some places for a few small reasons, but nowhere is perfect.

I've never been part of an RF gig lineup, probably because my band would probably not fit the bill with many outfits represented, but I am under the impression that Mark and Michelle put a great deal of time an effort into things.  I don't think they can be expected to please everyone.

That having been said, I'd say the Studio is probably one of the more heftily priced venues to play and find that as has already been stated; it's a hard venue to fill with your average local lineup, doing better with bigger names and international acts.  

I think it's paramount to remember here that whilst we as musicians aren't in the gigs for the $$, nor is the RF I'd wager and have to justify costs associated accordingly.  

[simon_ishtar]

To Simon on sponsorship..  we asked the rock once.. but they said they would only sponsor it if we got a headline band to play.

How about a smaller station? I'm sure Valdus would come to the party.

Dave I don't mean to give Michelle sh*t. I'm just pointing out once you start handing out the $$s on basis of people through the door you'll create antagonisms between bands and put people off gigging at RF gigs.

[Geetadave]

I think the novelty of having the studio (a kickass venue) is starting to wear out, and now frustration is kicking in, and now hearing we have to fork out before playing understandably has turned a few heads, and taken the wrong way..

Agree theres gota be a solution we can come to without biting anyones heads off... oh the sweet frustrations of being a musicians.. but we do it cause we love it!

[Geetadave]

How about a smaller station? I'm sure Valdus would come to the party.

Dave I don't mean to give Michelle sh*t. I'm just pointing out once you start handing out the $$s on basis of people through the door you'll create antagonisms between bands and put people off gigging at RF gigs.

agree, must have missed that my bad.

and with what scarecrow said, i dont care about the money and i rekon most other bands dont care either, without promoters/sponsors and all that sh*t whatever you will ever get out of a gig is peanuts and usually goes towards booze and dr*gs anyway. i just want to play.  I am happier getting less and playing at a kickass venue than going out of my way to show up at some ratty sh*tty venue, i think a lot of bands, especially us, are over sh*t gigs, you get so much more out of a nice venue with mean sound, the experience can't match a small venue.  Studio is a kickass venue, i think theres gota be a way we can keep it alive.

[Mark]

Smaller venues have little costs.. but to get a fri or saturday..  you've got to place a great lineup.  at the Kings arms, Schooner, weeknight at shadys... they're booked months in advance.. and won't let you take a fri or saturday if the lineup doesn't look like its going to pull crowds.. same old deal really.

  Unless someone knows a great place.

It would be great to find a small music bar that doesn't have a good pa and isn't that hard to book a fri or saturday.  then we put our pa in there permanently.. turn it into a Kings Arms sound quality wize..  with low costs.  
  the underground is a cool venue... sh*tty vocal Pa though... does anyone know how  much it costs to hire that place/pa?

[Geetadave]

i'll have a brainstorm with the boys this week, we played at the new brew a while ago and a few other random bars, places like that may be keen.

[Ant_Alpine Fault]

I've always believed in low cost operations with the highest possible quality in return. The Rock Factory have been a fine example of how this can work. We've all got so much out of the work Mark and Michelle have put into this but I wonder if you guys are still in control of the machine or has the beast taken control of itself leaving you grasping at the reins.  

It's always important to reflect on things and ask ourselves why we get up in the morning, why we go to band practise, why we put on that tie (or those bike pants and postie uniforms) for work. It's easy to get excited about how quickly things progress but when your excitement leads to overexpenditure and causes you to take actions that suggest straying from your initial course, the time for reflection may be here.

[Oliver Luck]

I wasnt meaning to have a go (if thats how it sounded). I was purely meaning that RF shouldnt take on the responsibility of organising it/promotion. it should be a bands thing. As is the way down here. The bands organise it, organise the soundman/gear, etc (though most places down here have a P.A inhouse) and organise promo. Id definately recommend finding a place that you can set up a regular night or two a fortnight/month with and build up a crowd in those places under one 'promo' company rather then under a purely RF. (as Ground Level Promo Does with Valve Bar down here). So that it takes out the pressure on Michelle/Mark of organising/etc and its a banner that bands and RF can push and build up. Where the responsibility is taken for the promo by the people who benefit from it (the bands who are part of it). Similar thing works down here quite well.

Could be worth trying up your ways possibly?

[simon_ishtar]

found a contact:
Underground bar
Cnr Queen & Wellesley Streets
Auckland Central Auckland
Ph. 0-9-373 3684
 they aren't even listed in the EWP and the few gig listings out there don't give the address.

[Willow]

Well as no one else is going to mention the fact the Ant was doing promotion for the rock factory but had to pull out for other reasons, I doubt anyone else will do it for nothing either.

and before I get jumped on AGAIN for stateing the f**king obvious its an observation not a slight at anyone OK!

[simon_ishtar]

Yeah there is a point there. I spent a lot of time years ago doing live music and stuff for a theater company and was always struck by the fact that there were so many people who would lend their expertise gratis, film, sound, lights, promotions, marketing, set construction, weapons instruction, leading warmup, looking after the door, stage managing...... not to mention the cast. you'd often have a huge crew driving things for the bigger picture. You'd never get that with a band scene unfortunately and it is totally understandable but sad all the same.  

[dragonorchid]

Ant will understand from the gigs he organised how the bands make all the difference. The promotion makes hardly any difference at all, its all about the line up, and the hype those bands make about it. he will have learned Upraw, Alpine Fault and Subservient are great bands that put the effort in to promote and bring people, C******, N**** and F******, even though they are also great bands don't bother.

[Oliver Luck]

In regards to Simon's post:::
I think there could be that kind of thing going on in the band scene. The only reason there isnt is that a majority of bands/companys/etc are in it for themselves. Not saying people here are. But look at it this way, RBG Records technically Owns Grounded Magazine. But Grounded isnt purely used as a  means to promote RBG or RBG Bands. Its open to any bands, from anywhere, even from any other label. And its open to any business/label as long as it has something to do with promoting local culture/art/music.

Ive been building up Ground Level Industry Group in that same way. Its a collective of company's (and soon to be; Bands aswell) that are all loyal to each other, offer high quality and affordability and GLI Group becomes a brand people trust becos they are companys people trust, all working towards a greater good; Improving and Developing NZ Music. Effectively, its the same as people working towards a greater goal even if that goal be a theatre production or a recogniseable increase in quality music being made and distributed nationally and globally.

Basically, when bands are promoting their mates bands as much as they are promoting themselves (as Ive seen Alpine Fault and Upraw do) then you get a similar thing happening. And THOSE are the types of gigs people go to and want to see again. When there is obvious friendship between all the bands playing. Its your friendships that count. Taking the time to get to know people who go, people who are near there who might go, and friends of friends. In the NZ Music industry your friends are your greatest asset. They are the difference between a good gig and a failure. If you value their friendship and would do as much for them as you possibly can, then they tend to want to do the same and THATS how you get the kind of productive atmosphere that you want to see in the 'scene'

[dragonorchid]

bands don't have to play a Rock Factory Gig. There plenty of alternatives like  Intergalatic, Indy Club or Self Made Club gigs. because you say it's about affordability, and not about money. No need to put down a deposit, no pay at the end of the night. Go for it.
 I have nothing against these gigs, I'm sure they put lots of work into promoting the bands that play them.  :-\We are just offering an alternative, one that actually usaully ends up being more beneficial to the bands than the others, and you might even get paid, even if that does not matter to you.

usually it is better for bands to organise their own gigs. They put the effort in for their own gigs. and thats great.

I'm not a promoter, I'm a sound person. I sometimes wish bands would stop sending me e-mails about gigs, and I wish people would take a chill pill. It is not pay to play, the meaning of deposit or "bond" if you want to think about it that way is different from that.

Mark suggested this deposit/bond thing because he thought it was a Smarter way of doing things (he says I continually let people walk allover me over and need to stand up for myself) and he thinks that it would sort out who was serious about it. I think he is right... a little...

[dragonorchid]

p.s Simon, the door tick sheet does not decide the split of the money, that is still equal, it just lets me know which bands deserve to get their bond back, and if I ever should book that band again.

[Willow]

so if the venue is chargeing $700 and you are $350 and the lighting guy is $300 that would mean you have to find 13 odd bands to pay a 'bond' for one gig. or are those figures wrong?

[dragonorchid]

The bond is really just to ensure the lighting guy is covered... we as sound people are willing to take a little risk... from time to time, and will split the door equally between the bands. I don't ever take a cut as a promotor. I do things for the love of it, and I just want things to be fair.

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