STUDIO GIGS

[dragonorchid]

cost also depends on the PA used:

Rock Factory PA ($250 to $350 depending on Thurs or Fri night and the number of bands playing), Plus $300 for lights = Total of up to $650 excluding posters/advertising costs.

College Hill PA ($650 to $750 depending on length of time used), Plus $300 for lights  = Total up to $1050 excluding advertsing/poster costs.

Venue does not charge for room hirage as long as bands bring enough numbers to drink at the bar to cover their staff, electricity and bouncers/security. Studio is quite different from most bars in that it does not open unless there is an event there.

[goatboy]

Bottom line, gigs are a very unpredictable thing. Unless you start paying people to come you're never going to get an accurate indication of numbers. So many different things come into play e.g. other events on the same night, venue location, door charge and of course the pulling power of the bands.

One of the most frustrating things is asking bands to play who don't make any effort to try and get people along. I personally would have no problem paying $100 to play at a high profile venue. I've even found that having a slight financial risk factor has given other bands a bit of a kick in the arse to actually try and promote their own gig.

I've spent literally 100's of $'s over the last few months putting on gigs and at times I've wondered whether I've done the right thing. However, comments from people at our gig in Wellington last Saturday to the effect that we're their new favourite Auckland band make these things worthwhile.....head...swelling......can't...stop it......

[simon_ishtar]

Ant will understand from the gigs he organised how the bands make all the difference. The promotion makes hardly any difference at all, its all about the line up, and the hype those bands make about it. he will have learned Upraw, Alpine Fault and Subservient are great bands that put the effort in to promote and bring people, Cervesa, Never and Fuelset, even though they are good bands don't bother.

Promotion has a f**king shitload to do with it regardless of who is pushing it. The bands should be doing their share but I'm sorry that is a dumb comment.
 If we are all going out and ONLY playing to our friends then we have all f**ked up and need to look more closely on how we all handle our promotions.
 Subservient are on the good books now but give them six months when their friends stop coming and they'll be in the same boat as Cerveza, one thing I know from being around a very long time is friends will only come to so many gigs, after that it is only 'special events'. AF have it going on and really need a champion at the moment pushing for the media coverage and gigs they deserve. I fear without the public knowing who they are the crowds will settle at a certain level and various other, far less talented bands will get the breaks they deserve. Upraw are sounding awesome at the moment and deserve more exposure too.
 I think RF website is not the vehicle for that and eventually RF gigs aren't either. AF, Upraw (and Ishtar) need to be getting opening spots for 'headline' acts with all the promotion and media hype that brings. RF is potentially a hue part of that as being able to send out CDs is a huge part of that. I think everyone here is missing a HUGE part of the equation though, a song is important as it is a soundtrack to a VIDEO this is the be all and end all, 'Rock' formatting is far too conservative to take a chance on an unknown band at the moment. I bring this up as I am sensing some frustration in general with a lot of bands.
 I have made the comment before RF is a great place for musicians to meet and share ideas, it is a musicians club pretty much. It is not where the public is at and thats why I suggested getting in reviewers. The public doesn't want to hear bands talk about how great they are, they want a third party with some cred doing that. I think if RF has that it brings a number of the public here. Of course if they come there is no mechanism to exploit their pocketbooks and considering the main businesses here are live sound and recorded sound......
 Sorry for any offence caused. Ant is right it is time for a lot of us to take a time out I think.

[indychino]

Whoevers prepared to give michelle or mark sh*t, go on and step up to the plate and do a better job, then see how easy it is to keep everyone happy...

Organise your own gigs if your not happy with the way it's run, it's quite simple in my opinion, like it or lump it.  i'm happy with the way the nights are run, i've never had a problem i dont see why anyone should have a problem.

Anyway, smaller venue is a good idea, as an idea expanding off other peoples ideas...  try find a small bar that can do a similar deal to studio, doesn't matter, anywhere..  if you put 1-200 people in a venue say the size of edens bar, that would kick ass!  and it would be a hellova lot cheaper.

I 100% agree with the above comments. here in Wellington. Its up to the bands!
We've got it quite sweet at the Valve. greg (Manager) doesn't charge anything. You can use the house PA (which is a monster). You have to pay for the sound engineer (there is a dude who does it for $80 - bargin).
At the end of the day, I think it should be up to the band to promote their own gigs.

Us musicans, are like babies sometimes. We need everything done for us!

Most of the gigs I've done have cost us money. They are hard work but thats what makes them so enjoyable

[Ant_Alpine Fault]

Shot Simon.

I honestly think someone with balls should approach this lighting guy and do the hard sell on him...

"Hey man, you've done us huge favours in the past by only charging the $100-$150 fee, but now that you've upped it to $300, we can no longer really afford to do gigs here. So yeah, can we meet somewhere in the middle because we don't want to have to cancel all future shows here.... you probably don't want to lose the income either... how about $180 per night + whatever we can afford on top of the other expenses....?"

Let him talk it up to $200 and go from there....

Check with the College Hill guys too. They might think that you guys are making lots of $$ so you can afford to pay them. I'm sure they'd rather let you use their PA and soundguy and pay a smaller amount than see you guys use your own stuff while they get nada....

Low Cost Operations... LCO's - Reduce the costs of everything you can without sacrificing quality. You're talking about people walking all over you, well everyone will. Ok, the price of petrol has gone up for the lighting guy too but that's something that we're all trying to deal with...

[simon_ishtar]

I think Ant makes a good point re:bargaining with the lighting guy.
 I currently have a few marketing ideas but will email later today, if the generators don't cut out at work. Not so much a 'Studio' thing but still possibly interesting?

[JoshuaZahn]

I'll add my two cents in. Advice free to be ignored, its only an opinion.

I think that the Rockfactory should 'refocus' itself as being a recording studio.

It's founded by two wonderful soundengineers who have invested alot of time and money into producing quality recordings of local bands at a decent (read fair) rate. When companies diverge into doing two areas (in this case live sound and recording) there is a certain amount of 'overhead' that gets introduced into the system, example, transport to and from venues where gigs are held. That didn't exist previously. When this kind of gear changing comes into play, its hard to do both tasks and do both tasks as well as you would do if you focused on doing just the one.

Here's the part where I mention Henry Ford and his streamlined focus, he delivered one product, and he delivered it well. Because it was his only product no one else could compete.

Regards to promotions, I think Simon is right about the drop rate of friends once the 'novelty' wears off. But I think there is a problem, everyone is talking about promotion, but one question that I would like to ask is "What is promotions anyway?" If you're talking about a checklist of items such as put up posters, email people on the mailing list, advertising etc... Then sure, thats all fine and good, and it is probably nessisary for every gig, but if thats the case then we've got the wrong idea, we shouldn't be doing promtions, we should be doing marketing, that is, expanding our listener base. I'm a firm believer that putting up posters will not expand your listener base, what it will do is remind people who are already in your listener base that you have a gig on.  It's up to other forces wheither they come or not. (Why do you think coke spends $$$ on advertising every year, its not to expand their market, its damage control in order to prevent people from forgetting that such a product exists)

This brings us to the sole question on "How can we expand our listener base?"
My answer to which is radio play. Radio play is the best form of promotion that you could possibly get, it doesn't cost anything.

Which is related to the question "What should the rockfactory do for gigs?" and my answer would be, to make kick-ass quality recordings at a price that is fair and affordable for young bands, just about to enter the market and want to get radio exposure or want self-funded cds to sell at gigs, send in for govt grants, or give away for promotional purposes.

Of course, its entirely up to Mark and Michelle to do what they want to do, after all it is their livelyhood, I have no idea if they could survive on just doing recordings, maybe they need to do the live sound gigs for money.

Oh, and I'd leave the lighting guy alone, he's a professional, its his job, he does good work and he wants to get paid, would you do your job for 33% less money?

And as a final aside, if the rockfactory moved towards a more recording based entity, then an oppertunity for someone could open up if they did want to do promotions and organise gigs and hire the rockfactory to do them. Promotions (and I'm talking about marketing, not putting up posters) is hard work and so is event organising, it would take a smart cookie to pull off a series (thats right a series, not just one) of successful gigs featuring local (and possibly national bands) in Auckland city.

PS: The rockfactory gigs that I have been involved in. Both attending and playing, have been some of the best gigs, sound and organization wise that I've had.

[dragonorchid]

The lighting guy is providing a bargain, do you know how much his rig is worth? His system on the Road would cost over $2000 to hire on the street. Do you know how many lights he breaks at every one of our shows. Often $200 to $300 just covers the lights that die at each show. You have to make shows worth while for everyone. The only way to get something like cheaper is not to do it there. It is not very fair he has been bearing the brunt of the costs.

[dragonorchid]

I can see you point Josh, makes alot of sense in ways. What is happening is I have quite a passion for recording and studio work, whereas Mark has quite a passion for Live sound... I don't know if it is boy/girl thing, but I prefer the non adrenaline rush type recording jobs, where as Mark gets a kick out of the live sound side of things, and is more suited to its heavy lifiting/hard physical work aspect than I am, even though I help him with it for most gigs. I guess I pay for it with feeling nacquered all the time now.

[simon_ishtar]

Joshua makes a good point though I'd say Mark and Michelle must be doing ok on the smaller gigs, ie shadows.  However it begs the question has RF ever thought of going to, say, Nightline, real groove and nz musician and saying "We've got this great story about a studio recording up and coming bands, they're the ones behind several songs currently getting airplay and doing it on a new, grassroots level." that is publicity for the organization (though admittedly not for gigs) Local papers would also go for it in a big way.
 A tour is a good publicity creater also? doesn't neccessarily have to be expensive, unless it is all the same bands touring round the place.
 I see the venue in question here being the big problem, not gigs as such.

[JoshuaZahn]

Well, if Marks the live sound guy, then I reckon he should call the live sound shots and setup gigs where he thinks they will be most valuable Money/Sound/Time wise. If you guys had a perminant thu/fri/sat that didn't need 3 hours of setup time (as Mark has suggested before in this thread) then I think it would be the best position for you guys. Fix a price per night and let bands (or their managers) do promo work.

[Ant_Alpine Fault]

...The only way to get something like cheaper is not to do it there. It is not very fair he has been bearing the brunt of the costs.

Ummm, isn't that the point ...?

If he's bearing the brunt of the costs and the sound guys (you) are bearing the brunt of the costs... and the bands aren't getting paid (until they too have beared the brunt of the costs).... and the public have to pay $10 a head to stand against a wall or lean on the bar.... who's "while" are the studio gigs "worth"...?

Well, that's not fair, we've got some of the best photos ever from the studio...   <-- Keith!

[Ant_Alpine Fault]

And as a final aside, if the rockfactory moved towards a more recording based entity, then an oppertunity for someone could open up if they did want to do promotions and organise gigs and hire the rockfactory to do them. Promotions (and I'm talking about marketing, not putting up posters) is hard work and so is event organising, it would take a smart cookie to pull off a series (thats right a series, not just one) of successful gigs featuring local (and possibly national bands) in Auckland city.

 

[dragonorchid]

Street Promotion as a job sux, its not something I'd want to pass on to anyone individual really. The amount of time you put in does not guarantee the out come. I agree that the bands/managers need to take on the promotion work for their gigs as a TEAM!. It means they get out what they put in. and my thoughts are alsong the lines of... if they put the work in, they get their bond back. I'm not asking them to pay to play, I'm asking bands to take more responsibility for how the gigs turn out. I agree with dave in that less gigs is more... because then they become more like special events... Assuming a band is not gigging the hell out and therefore, their following no longer comes to their gigs, then I think that having a gig occasionally at the Studio would improve their profile, and make them look really really good at very little cost.... no cost, and something in the hand if it works right.

[that drummer]

Pauls opinion:
*its hard to type cause my fingers are bandaged up cause of a *knife incident**

I dont think $100 is alot to pay, but another idea is, you pay $100 and you get 10 tickets to sell at $10 each, therefore, making you sell those to ure friends and making the money back. 10 people is not hard, i could sell 10 tickets with my eyes closed to any of our gigs. then, they might bring a friend, or anything, its simple really, intergalactic has a similar way of doing it.

I know my band is looking foward to one day playing at studio and we hope to by the end of the year and we wud easily 'deposit' $100 to make sure the gig works. Hell, we're paying close to $300 to do an all ages gig in 2weeks on which we need 92 people to break even. It makes you work alot harder to make people come if theres a risk of losing money. anybody thats taken a business course sometime knows that 'risk' is a key to sucess in any business venture cause as soon as theres risk, you work harder to minimise that risk.

anyway, its my opinion, and i dnt think $100 is alot of money to put foward if you really want that gig. and michelles right by saying if you dont wanna pay, go play at another bar.  

[dragonorchid]

The difference being that intergalactic keep the door take. we don't, we usually split it between the bands... and everyone knows that those intergalatic tickets usually get given away for free.... but that's an interesting idea... if your paying for 10 tickets with that $100, then you are guaranteeing  at least 10 people will come, and really you can sell them for whatever price you like, and the $100 can go straight towards costs.

[Ant_Alpine Fault]

I agree with dave in that less gigs is more... because then they become more like special events... Assuming a band is not gigging the hell out and therefore, their following no longer comes to their gigs, then I think that having a gig occasionally at the Studio would improve their profile, and make them look really really good at very little cost.... no cost, and something in the hand if it works right.

We want to gig less so we can do some more (much needed) writing. But I can only half agree with less gigs is better. Less gigs mean more time to focus on creating and moving forward as a band because rehearsals can be spent writing or just jamming not going over set-lists.

Having your "following" come to your gigs is not something any band should really focus on - THEY'LL BE THERE ANYWAY. Bands should be focusing on keeping that following (writing new material, giving them some kind of feeling of belonging to something, t-shirt and stuff (that's how churches work) etc etc) and building up more of a following.

Playing less gigs so your friends and family will come along? I thought the whole idea of gigging was to get more and more people into your music... not just bringing heaps of your friends so that you look cool in front of the other bands...

[Ant_Alpine Fault]

The difference being that intergalactic keep the door take. we don't, we usually split it between the bands... and everyone know that those intergalatic tickets usually get given away for free.... but that's an interesting idea... if your paying for 10 tickets with that $100, then you are guaranteeing  at least 10 people will come, and really you can sell them for whatever price you like, and the $100 can go straight towards costs.

Hmmm, kinda like the way intergalactic do things EXCEPT YOUR BAND PAYS FOR IT!!  

[dragonorchid]

um... the issue here is not blaming me, it is that the STUDIO is expensive, and i can't keep doing it alone. You can play the intergalatic gigs if you think the studio is not worth your while or $100, which you'll get back from the door take or selling tickets (you choose)...

Intergalatic keeps the door take btw, so i dont think your comment is a very fair comment.

what are you afraid of? Is it too risky? afraid you won't get your $100 back... I'm sure you of all people will.

[Geetadave]

We want to gig less so we can do some more (much needed) writing. But I can only half agree with less gigs is better. Less gigs mean more time to focus on creating and moving forward as a band because rehearsals can be spent writing or just jamming not going over set-lists.

Having your "following" come to your gigs is not something any band should really focus on - THEY'LL BE THERE ANYWAY. Bands should be focusing on keeping that following (writing new material, giving them some kind of feeling of belonging to something, t-shirt and stuff (that's how churches work) etc etc) and building up more of a following.

Playing less gigs so your friends and family will come along? I thought the whole idea of gigging was to get more and more people into your music... not just bringing heaps of your friends so that you look cool in front of the other bands...

Nah you sorta missed the point there mate, what i meant if you play less shows and play 1 big show every few months rather than trying to drag people to your gigs 1-3 times a month, you can concentrate on making that one show huge rather than wasting your energy on shows where fuckall people generally turn up, realistically on average how many people come to a show? we've had shows where the only people in the crowd were the bands and barman..  i suppose i'm saying that cause we've done 1-2 years of playing intergalactic gigs and stuff like that, and yeah they were really good for experience but we have a different focus now..  like try get some good airplay (fingers crossed), get a bigger fanbase, then if a few hundred people are keen as to see you play you can organise a one off show for those who can't wait to see yas.. we've had some shitter gigs, but now were confident enough that we can pull off a kickass show like the last one where we can honestly say we played well, for once.  

[Cyprien]

Pretty hard getting a crowd to come along to shows these days, unless you know them. People just don't go to live shows to see obscure bands. However watch them flock in their droves to a dance party where you only enjoy yourself if you're on at least 3 of 435 banned substances. So, the big question: what is it that makes people come to these events and not to gigs? Don't say dr*gs.

[Ant_Alpine Fault]

That's ridiculous. Intergalactic only keep the door take from people who come to the gig without tickets. They give you 30 tickets to sell which means if you put in the effort, you get paid... kinda what you're talking about.

If people show up to the gig because they don't know any of the bands and haven't bought tickets off them, then intergalactic deserve their $7 because they promoted the gig and guess what, people who may not have heard your band are suddenly in the front row enjoying your set.

Sounds pretty sweet really. The key here is that bands who give away their tickets (which they have every right to do) don't get paid - fine, their call. Intergalactic don't miss out on making $$ because if the bands are lazy and don't sell tickets, they'll get them at the door. Sounds like everyone's happy....

So yeah, the door take that intergalactic take is only the people showing up that the bands haven't got to first - fair enough.

If you can sell all your tickets at $5 each, you have 30 people to fill the mosh pit and you get $150 for doing an Intergalactic gig.

[Geetadave]

Pretty hard getting a crowd to come along to shows these days, unless you know them. People just don't go to live shows to see obscure bands. However watch them flock in their droves to a dance party where you only enjoy yourself if you're on at least 3 of 435 banned substances. So, the big question: what is it that makes people come to these events and not to gigs? Don't say dr*gs.

for a good time, on dr*gs....

but these events are usually world class events, where your almost guranteed a good time, it's like going to see a world class band or something, can't be compared.

[that drummer]

even still, i dont think $100 is hard, its not hard to bring 10 people to a gig, if not more. It's the whole risk thing again. And i dont think less gigs is more, we are doing as many gigs as we can, cause we're trying to get known, its great practise, and more people end up knowing us. Playing new sets to the same crowd defeats the purpose, if you only run over your set once at practise, thats gonna take up an hour at the most, which leaves 2-3 hours for new stuff. Then gradually replace your set so that your not losing any of the crowd you might have gained.

but that was heading away from the poiunt a lil, how hard is it to bring 30 people to a gig? 4 people in your band, 8 people each. Your general friends make up for maybe 10 regulars, so 20 extra people, i dont think is hard. Maybe some investigation into a new type of marketing if posters aint doing the job?? maybe i cud look into this when my break starts next week, simple surveys can do this... maybe ill do it for my own benefit as well

[Cyprien]

but these events are usually world class events, where your almost guranteed a good time, it's like going to see a world class band or something, can't be compared.

Or special events.

There you go, people only go if it's a big/rare/special occasion.

[Ant_Alpine Fault]

what are you afraid of? Is it too risky? afraid you won't get your $100 back... I'm sure you of all people will.

wtf? I'm not afraid of anything. We get to play a gig at studio - AWESOME! My band isn't the issue here, I'm simply worried about the affect it may have on our beloved Rock Factory.

Michelle, the only one who appears afraid of losing money is the Rock Factory for asking for a deposit. What kind of message does that send to bands... honestly?

Now, the only people who DON'T have to worry about risk is... The Rock Factory. Everyone else could potentially lose out but you guys have got your deposit so you're sweet - I don't care about that really - good on yas but back to what's important here: what kind of message does that send out?

Another part of it could imply (although all of us here know it's not the case) that the Rock Factory aren't gonig to do f-all for promotion because they have their deposit already...

 All i'm saying is it's pretty poor PR.

 

[Ant_Alpine Fault]

even still, i dont think $100 is hard...

Paul, I know what you're saying but the amount isn't the issue, it's the principle of the whole thing. I'd happily DONATE $100 or more to the Rock Factory if they really needed it I'm worried about what happens when word gets out about this...

No one will get it. All that people will see is that the Rock Factory are "charging" for gigs...

[dragonorchid]

I already told you, the deposit is for the lighting guy. We have always taken the risk, Mark and I have sometimes been paid $50 for a full PA ans 10 hours of hard work. because I split the door take equally between the bands. You try doing that all the time.

[dragonorchid]

but its a deposit... a bond that you get back! It shouldnt be a problem if bands are not afraid to get it back because they have put the effort in.

[Ant_Alpine Fault]

I know that's what the deposit is for but word gets out, rumours spread and the true story will get lost in the mere fact that bands are fronting up with cash to play a gig.

 me --> <-- me (again)

(where's the smiley for pulling your hair out...?)

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